"Why Do Catholic Apologists Need to Lie?"
November 11, 2009 by Patrick Madrid
Filed under Patrick's Blog
That’s only one of several provocative questions raised, presumably by an Evangelical Protestant, on this new 3-minute video clip. If nothing else, it illustrates the kind of dense — don’t bother me with the facts! — kind of mentality we “Catholic Apologists” (and you know who you are, Steve Ray, Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Jim Burnham, Mark Shea, John Salza, Father Mitch Pacwa, and the rest of you) have to deal with, from time to time. I won’t bother to try rebutting these claims. It’s enough to see them leveled with a presumably straight face in public and to know the sad truth, exemplified in this video, of our Lord’s words in Matthew 13:15.
Some of the other charges laid are:
Catholic apologists don’t represent “real” Catholicism.The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches are the “same” and “believe the same things.”The Catholic Church has oral traditions that came before the Bible and are authoritative.I like the part where he claims that “We [Protestants] have no canon other than the Bible itself . . . No one has produced any transcript or recording of any definitive ‘oral tradition.'” [NB: That is particularly interesting because the canon of Scripture is itself a Tradition and is not explicitly mentioned by Scripture.][Catholic apologists’] hate-filled rhetoric comes at a time when Evangelicals are most willing to discuss issues.”“Catholic apologist = hate-filled liar. That’s just the sad fact.”
It is sad that there is such hate. However, having lived in the Middle East among Muslims and Bedouins, I have seen hate from many sides — as well as great love and friendship. Does it really matter whether we are Catholic (as I am) or love God in conjunction with some other church? Do we really think God cares as long as He has our love and obedience and we have His love and care.
I believe that our Catholic Apologists are quite effective in winning souls to Christ and His Bride! Why else would there be such stark paranoia on the side of anti-catholics.
I am a recent convert to Catholicism and I couldn't agree more with the comment from Teri re: hatred for Protestant to Catholic converts. I was raised Lutheran and my family's pastor could not believe I was becoming a Catholic. (For that matter nither could my grandmother!)
I'm not sure which was worse becoming a Catholic or Republican.
"They say", "They speak for…", They. Who is they? Unattributed citations do not make an argument. And typing 'lies" in all caps does not make the argument any stronger. But Mr. Heath is right. The argument as presented is laughable, but the individual (whoever he or she is) is to be treated with respect.
In regards to the argument though, it seems to me to be a melange of unattributed "they say" statements along with canards. "Are there even 25 million faithful Catholics?" I don't know. I hesitate to count myself as one, knowing my own sinfulness, so I am more hesitant about judging someone else's faithfulness. Are there 25 million (or whatever number you like) faithful _____ (fill in with denomination of your choice)?
The comment on Latin American Catholics is merely a slur. I am sure you can find Latin American Catholics who are REALLY something else. I am also sure that is true about any other group you would like to mention. It says nothing about the Catholic Church per se.
What is a "retrograde strain" of the church?
The fact that Evangelicals and Catholics Together agreed that justification is by faith alone is not news. Nor is it a new doctrine. They also agreed, I believe, that true faith is never alone, it is always accompanied by works, as St. James pointed out a while back.
The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the same and believe the same things? I suspect that would be news to all the Orthodox Patriarchs and Metropolitans. Has anyone ever really said this?
"A recording of this oral tradition"? Like, a tape recording? What does this mean? Even Protestant churches have Tradition. Tradition informs interpretation of Scripture and praxis, and vice versa. There is always a "lens", so to speak, informing our interpretation of Scripture. It all depends on who is doing the interpreting. The Roman Catholic Church has the Holy Father and the Magisterium to mediate and discern between competing or conflicting "lenses". In Protestant Traditions, conflicting "lenses" result in schism and new traditions. (There is a reason that phrases like "the Lutheran tradition" are not meaningless.)
Hate-filled? Unless your definition of hate is infinitely elastic, I saw nothing even in this post's tendentious argument that indicates hatred on the part of Catholic apologists.
Let us pray that, whoever this person is, that they are led to the light somehow.
Our Lord bless you, Patrick! You have been dealing with the anti-Catholic "jihad" for years and you still have patience!
That is sad and I pray for whoever made the video that Our Lord will bless Him with a spirit of humility and open his eyes to the hate he has.
If it's from the group that I met early on – This is their mission…their job…the life…to spread anti-catholic hatred and lie and deceive. To stir up any and all Protestants to think we are out to "get them" to be in our Church…
They HATE, HATE, HATE Catholic converts from Protestantism the most. It's like we are on "teams" and we just switched sides.
The kingdom of God on earth is not a team..it's a family…God is not team manager…HE is our Father.
Father forgive them.
In the peace of Christ,
Teri
The only thing this video convinced me of is how awesome our sacred music is.
Yeah, I think this video is made by one of those 'Spirit of Vatican II' catholics,..following their 'pope' Hans Kung the First. Not to sound condescending, but it looks like it was put together in ten minutes…oh well…
Robert, I'm not sure what book is being referred to in counting "denominations". It seems it would be nearly impossible to count. Does a new church community that refers to itself as being "non-denominational" count as a new denomination or not? Within a few miles of where I live, I've noticed a few new nondenominational denominations go up in the past year. The point would seem to me not how many denominations there are, their numbers are legion while Christ prayed that they all might be one.
Replying to the so called lies (as an apologist myself):
Lie #1: Catholics means all Catholics… Besides I think we are 1.1 billion, not 1.3 (which is the number of Muslims)
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Lie #2 he said: "I googled them"… that is really serious research! I guess this is a first hint of ignorance.
Perhaps he should really study the Fathers and learn what they really say.
This guy is really a well of science and colture LOL!
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Lie #3 is BS: catholic apologist do not speak for the Church but explain what the Church says. I never heard an apologist say they 'speak for the Church'.
Myself I never say I speak for the Church but I try to explain the views of the Magisterium.
In the dialog w. Lutherans it was agreed that Faith is a main cause of justification, but what the video leaves out is that good works are essential to have a 'living faith' and not a dead one. This has been ponted out clearly in St. Paul's letters and Aquinas also stressed this point later on.
The interpretation of faith and 'through faith alone' is not exactly the same in the Church as it is in protestant communities.
The person who made this video does not know himself what the Church really says.
Perhaps he should read the cathechism sometime.
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Lie #4: I think no apologist says this. We agree that Orthodox and Catholics uphold in most cases the same theology, but there are also several points of difference.
Many Catholic Apologists talk about the 'Filioque question'.
It's also a lie to say that Orthodoxy is 'virulently anti-catholic'. There is some animosity and contrast, true, especially with the Russian Orthodox Church, but say that they are virulently anti-catholic is false, especially fro the Greek-Orthodox Church.
I guess he's dong wishful thinking here: because he hates us everyone else MUST too.
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Lie #5: is the same ol' BS about Sola Scriptura. To deny that oral tradition came first it is to deny history itself.
Perhaps they do not even THINK where the canon comes from and how the gospel was spread in ancient times.
No matter how some evangelicals might want to deny Oral Tradition they cannot rewrite history.
I feel sorry for the guy who made this video… He is calling liars others to try to make his own false beliefs true….
Someone needs to make a direct respectful response to this. It isn't enough to mock the man. There are many people who do not know enough to be certain who is doing the lying. What about some of his claims? What about the book that says how many denominations there are? What about the statement on justification? How exactly do we reconcile these apparently conflicting claims? What about the multiple youtube identities to vote him down? Is anything he claims true or not? I'm a believing, faithful Catholic and I don't have at my fingertips the answers to his claims. Calling him misguided or mocking him is insufficient. The truth, respectfully and charitably presented is what is needed.
Thanks for bringing this darkness into the light. We pray the Holy Spirit to bless this person and illuminate their soul. I'm wondering what unconfessed mortal sin has led this soul to so hate the Bride of Christ: the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. God bless and strengthen our loving Catholic apologists. Amen.
PHumm
Why do anti-Catholics have to rely on vitriol and slander?
The need to hate seems to be on the rise, and the only agreed outlet is The Church.
There is a good side – She is still just as challenging and provocative as almost 2000 years ago with the Pharisees and Romans.
HA! sorry, but I just laughed out loud.
God bless you Patrick, hopefully someday I will get a chance to be an apologist. Hopefully as half as good as you are. Thanks for inspiring, informing and defending our beautiful faith.
I am an evangelical Anglican priest. This has to be one of the most unhelpful items I have ever witnessed. I have many issues with (Roman) Catholic theology and practice. However (like Calvin) I refuse to unchurch those who follow that church's teaching, but will (I hope) politely debate the things I disagree with and post items I do agree with. This kind of rhetoric (if that's not too grand a word) has no place in genuine loving Christian debate.
Why does his slideshow move so quickly? I could barely make out his accusations and refutations. You are a patient man Mr. Madrid. Thank God for you and all of the other apologists. You helped me come back home…and on fire too!