British pundit comments trenchantly on the NYC mosque debacle
August 30, 2010 by Patrick Madrid
Filed under Patrick's Blog
As far as I’m concerned, he’s nailed it. What do you think? And while you’re thinking about it, just imagine what the reaction would be if the Catholic Church were to try to build a church in, say, Riyadh or Medina. What is being demanded of us here would be forbidden to us there.
JOE…when Peter the Penniless was attempting to recruit Crusaders to save the Holy Lands there is a story that he walked right into a farm collective whose members were long alienated from the Church and the call to arms came went something like this,
"I know many, if not most of you, have not been to Mass in a long time and you'll never be back to Church. I know that. You are living lives of sin, and I know you don't really care about the Church anymore. I know. But I want you to know…that the Saracens are overrunning the Holy Lands, and they will destroy the Holy Sites, and Jerusalem, itself. THe sacred spots of Jesus and Mary. And I, am going to the Holy Land."
And with that, he turned around, and walked out of the field.
Well, apparently that whole brief experience for the onlookers was more than they could bear.
Some started crying, a slew of them threw down their farm implements…and followed him.
Nothing has changed. Islam is on the violent rise again, and your Constitution does not allow the preaching of insurrection. While the OT recalls a time when the People of God were called to eliminate the Hittites etc. that time has long passed. The Koran calls for the destruction of the Jew and the Christian in the present tense.
The Mormons and their marital practices were suppressed by your federal government.
Muslims should be told, from the federal level itself, to build…but elsewhere. Proper, firm, leadership.
Satan's own religion is a label that accurately identifies Satan's religion through its two notable tenets. Hatred and murder. Right there in the beginning. It's a conditional label based on the observed behaviour or preached behaviour..
Pope John Paul II called the Catholic faithful and people of good will to build a better world. Catholics and atheists can co-operate toward this goal. The present state of Islam mitigates against this directive, violently. Sharia, only. Don't over-read 841. In the Catechism, proper acknowledgement is given to the Jews by the Church…True, but very careful positive statements are made about Islam…bearing in mind the vulnerability of Catholics who reside in Islamic countries.
"because they seem foreign and menacing"
The proof is already there. There is no "seem". THEY ARE. And the supposed Muslim moderates do not condemn the violent elements of the others.
And conjuring about Catholics was always just that…
But there is a repeatedly violent and proven insurrectionist element to current Islam that is not contained just to the fundies.
Peace.
Patty, Just based on the population numbers we are probably going to have to learn the language anyway. Certainly, take a stand protest, picket, boycott. But don't stoop to the level of the radicals by fostering violence. By the way, that includes the violence of violating property rights. The simple fact is that neither you or I own the property in question so we really have no right to project onto the owners what to do with it. Tom
The Man Behind the "Ground Zero" Mosque
Scott Pelley Chats with Real Estate Developer Sharif El-Gamal, the Man Responsible for the "Ground Zero" Islamic Center
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6820611n&tag=related;photovideo
Patrick, Respectfully, I caution you to be careful of your verbiage. "They demand freedoms… in this country…" is inaccurate because it implies that government gives us our freedom and they are taking advantage of our system of government. If you really believe that God is the source of our freedom, as our founding fathers did, then the Muslims are right to expect such freedom here and everywhere.
What's wrong about showing off our unique form of government which allows freedom and its attendant prosperity? Including the freedom to make wrong choices just as God does?
So at least we agree that Islam is largely a peaceful religion. You have not explained why we should judge it on even your 10% of radicals. Look, there are bad people in this world who use religion as an excuse for violence and this has not changed for centuries (I am sorry to say even among Christians) in spite of the fact that virtually all religions preach a message of peace. We must understand what drives violence in an otherwise peaceful religion. This has been looked at from a scholarly perspective by Richard Pape in The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism available on books.google.com And guess what… it's not religion.
No, I do understand the urgent and importance of understanding that this is nothing new and no substantial threat that it is worthy of the further erosion of American liberty.
This is being stoked by Rupert Murdoch and other merchants of war who hope to gather support for an immoral, aggressive war against the peaceful people of Iran who happen to find themselves under the tyranny of a broken government… sound familiar?
Remember in the battle against Muslim invasions we have God on our side just as Christians of centuries ago. Tom
Yes, Patrick: Hitchens, indeed has nailed it.
I'm praying for his health, both physically and spiritually.
Atheist or not – the Truth is The Truth.
PS. Thank you for helping me to better know and love The Catholic Faith and to have better equipped me in my public witness to those around me. I pray for you and thank God for you. And – for Christopher Hitchens!!
Totus Tuus,
Mary Irene
Mmmm, no, I am quite sure that I don't have this one wrong.
It seems you're reacting to something I never said nor implied: i.e., that we in the U.S. should emulate the repressive intolerance of other countries. I was pointing out the irony that they demand freedoms to do things in this country that they would implacably deny to Catholics, for example, if they were asking for the identical thing in Saudi Arabia. Nothing I said involves "aspiring" to their type of repression.
And how do you define "a tiny percentage"? Do you mean that only 10%? 5% 1% of the total favor violent Jihad? Keep in mind that even if just 1% fall into that category (the experts I have spoken to personally, or whose works on the subject I have read, place that number considerably higher than 1%), that translates to 13 million who support violent jihad. Think about that. I'd also suggest reading up on some of the related issues at http://www.jihadwatch.org. The man who runs that widely respected website happens to be a devout Catholic whom I know personally.
What you cavalierly dismiss as "hype" and a "non-issue" is actually something far more urgently important than you seem to understand. I agree that we should do everything we can to show good example and strive to save their souls, but doing that in no way precludes taking a common-sense, principled stand against something that is very distressing to a great many people because it is, as this British atheist explained, "unreasonable and manipulative special pleading" on their part." It is confrontational and thus unwelcome to a great many people. Myself included.
Tom,
Rosetta Stone has an Arabic program. If we don't take a stand somewhere, most especially Ground Zero, we might as well learn the language.
Okay, let's just take a deep breath. This is a post from an inflammatory bigot who is wrong on several counts. Amy Joy's intuition is correct (above). Patrick, I love your blog and love to listen to you on Catholic Answers but you've got this one wrong. Is the US to aspire to the standard of freedom of Saudi Arabia — the authoritarian theocratic monarchy with numerous human rights violations? I hoped that conservatives would seize this opportunity to advance the most basic of human rights usually violated by the left: private property.
I think I heard you say not to 'judge a medicine by those who don't take it' when referring to schismatic elements of Catholicism. I believe that the Muslims could make the same argument. The evil practice of murder-suicide bombing has been condemned by traditionalist Islamic clerics as an apostate innovation of recent vintage that is incompatible with Koranic teachings condemning suicide and assaults on innocent non-combatants. This reflects the fact that terrorists and those who support them account for a tiny percentage of the world's 1.3 billion. Muslims. Should not we Christians, and Catholics in particular, set the standard of respect for our erred brethren in interest of saving their souls? The hype generated from this non-issue is stoked by those who profit from perpetual war and statism.
"Never Was An Arrow II,"
Statements like "Muslims should have no voice in America," under the ironic banner of "freedom," are tragically misguided, and undermine the legitimate opposition many of us have towards the Ground Zero Mosque. Those who support the mosque claim that any opposition to it is rooted in anti-Islamic bigotry, and that a mosque ANYWHERE in the US wouldn't be acceptable. That's nonsense, given what most reasonable people are actually arguing (namely, "build it elsewhere"), but it only takes a few comments like yours here to validate that entire argument. So a special no thanks for that.
If the First Amendment doesn't provide them a guaranteed voice, because they seem foreign and menacing, then it's not worth the paper it was written on. And Catholics, who haven't been out of the "foreign menace" category for that long, should be most keenly aware of this. Al Smith will take his orders from Rome, and all that rubbish. And before you tell me about the violence done in the name of Islam, consider whether the government should have the right to label certain religions "just too dangerous" to be protected under the First Amendment. Is that really what you want?
No, if America is to be what she claims to be, she needs to uphold the legal right of people to practice their religion freely, even unpopular or foolish religions. Of course, that doesn't mean Americans have to quietly in the face of these offenses (any more than we would have to sit quietly by while someone spouted vile, First-Amendment protected, speech). It's really pretty simple: Muslims have a legal right to build by Ground Zero, but they shouldn't, because it's morally repulsive and beyond calloused.
Finally, it's probably worth noting also that the Catholic Church, unlike many Protestant sects, notably does NOT take the position that Islam is "Satan's own religion" at all. See, for example, paragraph 841 of the Catechism. She views Islam as a misguided attempt to worship the God of Abraham, with dangerous heresies mixed in. Believe as you will, but for your own sake, don't wander away from Mother Church's guidance on this issue.
In Christ,
Joe.
I wish I could bring myself to listen for your sake, Patrick. But as soon as his face appeared I realized that I had once seen a very similar looking video of the same man spewing the most vile hatred towards Catholics.
You've acknowledged this.
Perhaps a few words of your own that sum up his points that you feel "nailed it" would be more effective. Shared opinion is not intellectual theft.
I'm curious, but I just can't view it.
Excellent video. Excellent points to ponder and use as a defence against Islamification of the West.
Muslims should have no voice in America. Lots of Christian, and Jewish blood was poured out to keep America free during both world wars and beyond.
Islam is a religion of hate and murder. Satan's very own religion.
Pat's attacks on the Catholic Church have been rather weak, easily countered.
Pat also gets it right here:
Freedom is contrasted with Islam and the obtuseness of the overzealous PC crowd. Here, Pat slams ATHEISTS who pander to Islam…
This is an act of war…The only thing can save us now is a direct intervention of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother God. Massive rosary petitions, vigils, processions and sacrifices and prayers around the clock ,if it's not too late and we are deemed worthy enough. America is on the brink of civil war…Dear Mother of God,Pray fo us !
An excellent analysis of the situation. I wasn't aware of what Bloomberg (which my spell checker just tried to change to bomber) was doing in Dubai.
Yes, of course he is. I know that. But even an atheist can get some things right, and Condell gets it right here. Let's not be afraid to give credit where it's due.
Patrick,
Not that a broken clock can't be right twice a day, but this guy is a notoriously anti-Catholic atheist. See this video as an example: